Interview of the day: Áron Gauder

Hungarian animator and director Áron Gauder has fulfilled his lifelong dream by completing, after years of work, a feature-length film about Indigenous culture and its worldview. He wants people to reflect on where Western civilization is heading in its pursuit of material wealth, and whether this path is still sustainable. ‘Our European image of ourselves – that we are smart, that we are intelligent, and that we make great decisions – is bullshit. I think it’s nonsense,’ Gauder says in an interview for Anifilm.

In your film Four Souls of Coyote (2023), a group of Native Americans stands up against an oil pipeline project that threatens their sacred land. An elder tells the children an ancient creation myth about the origin of the world and humanity’s place in nature, emphasizing that we are not the ‘masters of the world’‚ but part of a larger circle of life. Why did you choose this particular theme?

First of all, I have been involved in Native American culture for 30 years because we have our camp in the forest, where we set up tipis and make our own clothing. I have been going there since I was 18, and there are similar camps also in the Czech Republic, in France and in Germany. That has been a really good thing for me. Two weeks every year to recover, to be without electronic gadgets, and just to be in the forest. I learned a lot of stories and songs, and how they see the world. And I always wanted to make some kind of film about this. First, we started with short Native American tales, like folk tales. It was a series funded in Hungary, but after a while they cut the funding. So we decided we wanted to make a bigger film about it because we love doing it. I chose the Creation story because that shows best how they think differently. I knew that everybody knows the Creation from the Bible. Everybody has something to compare it to. I wanted to show how they see it differently, and that was the best topic to express all these new viewpoints that they have, compared to Europeans.

So for you it was kind of a lifetime project to transform it from a vision to the screen…

Yes. And I’ve seen many films that were made in the US, but it’s always a white person going there and experiencing how they live. But I wanted a different viewpoint. We see it from their point of view to show how they see us. It’s like a mirror for us.

Your feature debut District! is set entirely in an urban environment and deals with social ills such as unemployment and racial tensions, yet it approaches them through exaggeration and satire. The subject matter of Four Souls of Coyote is completely different and much more serious. What kind of responses has the film received so far? It has been successful at festivals, winning the Golden Goblet Award for Best Animation at the Shanghai International Film Festival 2023 and the Jury Award at the Annecy International Animated Film Festival 2023. However, the film is not yet available in our country…

We had success at festivals. That was good. We can say it was successful at festivals, but we had less success with distribution. Distribution is a really blurry area to me. I don’t know how it works. So we got a world sales agency that is responsible for selling it in every country possible, but they’re not doing much. And we couldn’t break through to America either because we have a distributor there, but she is not doing much. So we don’t really understand how it works here. Big streaming platforms like Netflix or HBO didn’t want to buy it. So we’re kind of stuck with it. And since the rights are in this company’s hands, we can’t do it ourselves. So that’s a bit painful for us because we wanted everybody to see it. It’s not about the money because it doesn’t bring in much money at all. It’s just, you know, that’s why you make movies – because you want people to see them. But it’s so complicated. I can’t see through how it works.

So now it’s not possible to see it in cinemas...

No, it’s not. We tried everything. We keep writing letters to the distributors asking what’s happening. And they just don’t care. So the only country where they made a big campaign for it was France. The French did a serious distribution campaign with advertising, and they put it in cinemas. So that was successful. But the rest, not so much. I don’t even know where they sold it. It’s so complicated and full of politics. I don’t mean big politics. It’s more about interests and quotas and all this stuff.

I see. And how do you see the big difference between your debut and your second film?

I was much younger, so it was a long time ago. The original idea of The District! came from a friend of mine, and we made it together. So it was mostly his vision, and I was the one who had experience in directing. So we cooperated. It was more like his world, but I loved it at that time because South Park in America and all these things had just come out, and we realised that we didn’t have to make animated films just for children. We could do something about what we wanted, using a different language, and about the problems we see around us, and we enjoyed doing it. It was more like fun. This other film, after 20 years... I‘ve probably changed, and that was different, but I love both of them.

Well, between these two feature films there is a 19-year-long gap. That is a long time. What were you doing in between?

We had another project. We worked on it for six years. It was an Icelandic saga. We cooperated with Iceland, and it was a Viking story before all these Viking series came out. We worked on it for six years, but after that, they cut the funding because of political changes. I got depressed for a while.

Four Souls of Coyote was preceded by two short films about Native American culture. Were those projects a way of testing the theme before developing it more fully? I’ve read that you have been interested in Native Americans since your youth. You are also the creator of the series The Coyote, based on Native American folktales.

Yes. This is how we started, because after the failure of this Icelandic saga, I only wanted to do short things, because making a feature film is a huge responsibility. A lot of money and a lot of time. And since I burned myself with the previous one, I just wanted to do short projects. And these were short films of seven or maybe nine minutes. So we planned to do a series because it’s one year of work. It’s a healthy time frame. You know, one year is not much, and you have a small team. So this is how we started. But after a while, we loved doing it. Then we decided to make a feature film, and it took us eight years, though. It was five years just to find financing because in animation, it’s always easier to find money if you do something for children, something more entertaining. So this topic, especially Native Americans – everybody, even in Canada, where we tried – said it’s too sensitive. We want to thank you. It’s nice, but we want something more digestible. Fun, easy. So five years were just spent looking for funding.

The opening credits state that the film was ‘inspired by indigenous legends’. Could you be more specific? Which legends played the most important role?

The skeleton, the backbone of it, is a cruel creation myth from the Cree tribe. That was the original Creation story. But after that, we adapted some other tales into it. So it was just inspired by it, because it’s not exactly the same story. We had to change some parts in favor of dramaturgy. Because in the original, they explain everything about how they became alive, and it’s too long and repetitive. So we had to change it, and we also wanted to include white people in it. They don’t exist in the original stories because they were told before the white people came. So we had to change a lot of things. That’s why it’s just inspired by it.

One of the main characters is the coyote. Why did you choose this particular animal? What symbolism does it carry?

Yeah, it’s really important. In the Americas, the coyote lives from Alaska to Mexico, so it’s everywhere. And it’s a character that is a little like the fox in European folktales. The fox is always cunning, playing tricks. It’s also a little like evil in the Bible, but not so black and white. I love this character because it symbolises a little how we are – that we’re not just bad or just good. Also here, the Creator is not just good. He’s a little bit less confident. It’s a more flexible way to look at the world. Nothing is black or white, wrong or good. I think it fits more with how we see things. Because if you do something, maybe you think it’s good, but other people can think it’s bad, and it’s not so black and white. And that’s why I love this character.

And why does the coyote actually have four souls?

It comes from one tale. Four was a magic number because of the four directions and the four seasons. So four is a magic number. And in one story, the Creator was in a good mood and gave four souls to the coyote. But the coyote is not responsible. He loses one, he loses one, he loses one. And when he has only one left, he starts acting differently and seriously. So that’s also a good lesson – that we have only one life. So respect it and don’t act silly. He starts doing good when he realizes he has only one chance left.

The relationship between the coyote and the old Creator of our world is also intriguing. The coyote was born in the Creator’s dream, and it is the coyote who created the first humans. Should we interpret this to mean that human imperfection stems from the coyote’s ambivalent nature?

Yes. In the original story, humans were the last creatures, just like in the Bible, but not like in the Bible. They are not the crown of creation, especially not man. In the Bible, everything is under him. So it’s a higher hierarchical structure in which man is on top and everything else comes below. But here it is the opposite. The Creator first created the big animals. They were strong. And humans are small and fragile because the Creator ran out of fur and horns and clothes. So humans are the weakest, and they have more to learn. That was the message in the original story. And they also have the cunning mind that they use. They can use it for good and for bad. And what was also interesting in the story is that the Creator created things on purpose, like an engineer. But sometimes he is angry, and he can’t control his emotions. And the emotions also became alive – like how lightning comes alive. I love that because it’s just like humans. We’re not doing everything with our minds. We sometimes act out of anger or envy. So I loved that it also creates reality. Because if you hurt somebody, or if you start a war, for example, for whatever reason, you manifest what you have inside, and that’s not logical. So our picture of ourselves in Europe – that we are clever, that we are intelligent, and that we make great decisions – that’s bullshit. I think it’s bullshit. We have to accept that we have all these bad motivations inside.

At the end of the film, one character says about white people: ‘They have not found their own place in the great cycle of the world.’ The film ends on a reconciliatory note, yet reality seems far less hopeful. We are facing the threat of climate change, overpopulation, and a troubled geopolitical situation. In your view, what needs to happen for humanity to change its relationship with nature? Or are we inevitably heading toward catastrophe?

I am pessimistic, but two days ago something happened here that made me feel optimistic sometimes (Hungarian elections – ed. note). I think we need a serious change in mindset, and that’s why I made this film – to push people in this direction, because we can’t continue like this. Happiness does not come from wealth and possessions. If everybody changed in this way, then there would be hope. But I don’t see that in the world. I see craziness and aggression and all these bad things, but sometimes good things also happen. I think this new generation that made the change here two days ago is thinking differently. So I think they are going to have different answers to the problems and different solutions. And that gives me hope.

Italian film scholar Cristina Formenti has written about the contradiction between ecological animated films and the environmental impact of their production. Animation can leave a significant carbon footprint, which is somewhat paradoxical. How was it in the case of Four Souls of Coyote? Was this something you considered during production?

I understand and that's a good question. Of course, we had an ecological footprint, but everything you do has. So if I did different work, I would probably use just as much electricity and not doing something going in a good direction. So I prefer to do films. How can you do anything without having a footprint unless you live in a forest? You know, like renewable energy. That would be good. That would probably be the right way to do it, but I'm an animation filmmaker, and I thought maybe I could affect people with this. And that pays off. Who knows? I don’t know. Maybe she’s right. We should all stop now.

How big was your team during the work on Four Souls of Coyote?

At its peak, there were 120 people. That includes everyone – the actors, the animators, the artists. But that was just at one point. I started alone, of course with the producer and one project manager. I worked with them, then a few people joined, and more and more came in. There was a peak, and then it went down again. But at the highest point, it was 120 people altogether. It wasn’t a really big team.

You have made two animated feature films. Many filmmakers prefer shorter formats, but you clearly do not. Why is that?

Not actually. First, with District! we also started with short episodes, like a series, because no one is brave enough to start with a feature film. So we started a series there too, but we got cancelled, just like with the Native American series. And at that point, we didn’t want it to end. We already had the studio and the technology, and we said, okay, let’s do a feature film. It was just circumstances pushing me that way. After this Icelandic story, I made short films and short documentaries. So I don’t mind doing any of it. It was just how it happened.

In Czech mainstream media, Hungary is most often mentioned in connection with its long-serving Prime Minister, Viktor Orbán, but he lost power in the recent election. From your perspective as an insider, what is the current situation in your home country in terms of cultural production in general, and animation in particular? Does politics influence it directly, or do you manage to live in your own ‘bubble’?

It’s difficult. It was always difficult. When I graduated from university, there was a big director in Hungary called Marcell Jankovics. He was probably the most famous in Hungary, and he and his friends were in charge of the financing. So no one else really got money. Just him, a few friends, and some others. So it was a struggle. After he died, that changed and we got a chance. But politics has always influenced financing, and in the last, let’s say, five years, radically. They financed projects with unbelievable amounts of money. You can’t even imagine how much funding they got. But they were making propaganda movies for Orbán’s government, or they were managed from above, like: make a film about this. They were not talented people, but they spent a lot of money. Half of it was stolen, and the rest was rubbish. But the good thing was that it was mainly live-action film. The good thing was that the filmmakers, the cameramen, the costume designers, the lighting crew – they got jobs. So it was good for the workers. But in animation, we always got some money. I’m not complaining, but it got narrower and narrower. So with Coyote, we spent five years in Hungary, and they said ‘no’, and there was no other chance because you can’t collect money from other sources without state funding to start with, especially for a feature film. We had some solutions, but it’s a small country. So there is only one source, and everybody wants a bite of it. So yes, it’s a struggle. And there were people who ended up on a blacklist. It wasn’t openly said, but you knew that this person was out because he didn’t agree with the politics. He said something somewhere, and then he was out.

Do you see, after the election, any hope for a change in the situation?

Yeah, there is always hope. We don’t know what’s going to happen. It needs time. I don’t know what’s coming, but the goal now is to stop these big productions and let individual directors and studios start applying for funding. They want to make it more just and more fair. Hopefully they will.

What is your next project? What are you currently working on?

I’m working on a short film. It’s just ten minutes long, and it’s about the Big Bang – how the universe started. And it’s a bit more experimental. I’m also learning new technologies because we worked for eight years on Coyote, and now I have to update myself. That’s why I’m experimenting. But we didn’t get funding, only for the preparation. So I’m working on it on my own. Nobody else. But hopefully I can finish it in the summer, and then we’ll see.